Patricia Banks, a 2018-19 CASBS fellow and sociologist at Mount Holyoke College, discusses African American representation in the art world, the interplay of patronage and cultural identity, and the concept of diversity capital.
Patricia Banks' latest book, "Diversity and Philanthropy at African American Museums"
Patricia's previous book, "Represent: Art and Identity among the Black Upper-Middle Class"
Patricia's piece on "Collecting African American Art: From the Harlem Renaissance to the Obama Era" - Blackpast.org
Pierre Bourdieu's influential book "Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgment of Taste"
Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences
@casbsstanford on twitter
John Markoff: From the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences at Stanford University, this is Human Centered. Patricia Banks is a sociologist at Mount Holyoke College who studies cultural and social boundaries with a focus on race and ethnicity. Some of the topics she explores are the bidirectional relationships between art collecting and identity, structural and cultural explanations of museum philanthropy, and the influence of consecration on the art market. I met her recently in the CASBS library and we spoke about Black representation in the art world, cultural identity, diversity capital, and art patronage. Why don't we begin by talking about your research?
Patricia Banks: You know, so there are two kind of, for me, there are two aspects of my work. So right now, so in general, I deal with issues of race and ethnicity and culture, and I've been particularly focused on art collecting on the one hand, but then I've also started to look at the art market itself. And it's really interesting because I became interested in the art market because my first book, it's Represent: Art and Identity Among the Black Upper Middle Class, And so I interviewed art collectors in New York and Atlanta. And one of the things that they would talk about a lot is that the market for art by African American artists was more accessible. The prices hadn't— were still such that even if you weren't a millionaire or a billionaire, you could still create a very rich collection. And so what happened was people would say this all the time, but it was really hard to find concrete evidence about the state of the art market. And so what I did is I decided that I would try to collect some concrete evidence about shifts in the art market. And so one of the projects that I've worked on is look— using archival copies of catalogs at the major auction houses to track the sales of art by artists of African descent.
John Markoff: Can I just ask you a very logical question?
Patricia Banks: Yes, yes.
John Markoff: So I was thinking about that when you're going into these catalogs, they probably don't keep gender— well, gender information is easy, but race, racial, ethnic must be really hard.
Patricia Banks: It is.
John Markoff: So each one is probably a labor of—
Patricia Banks: Yes, yes. And so it's one of the things I always say is you realize why people haven't answered some of the questions that you're very interested in after you get about halfway through. You see there's a reason nobody has collected that data. So it literally required me first identifying what each of the sales were, because there aren't necessarily even good records about what each of the sales were. So I first had to find out what each of the sales were, and then I had to get a copy of the catalog. So I'm very very lucky in that at Mount Holyoke College we happen to be a college that collected catalogs. So I was able to get some there, but that was just a small part. It really involved me going to art museum libraries, Harvard, the Met, etc., really all over the country. And then also through interlibrary loan I was able to get some. So I would get the catalog, make a PDF copy of the catalog, and then transcribe it. So that's just, that's just getting the data. And then you're right, you have to do the biographical research on all of the artists. Wow. Yeah.
John Markoff: I have some sense of how hard that is.
Patricia Banks: I'm sure you can imagine. But we have the answer to the question, and it's really fascinating in that, because what you see sometimes in the media is they'll talk about a boom for art by African American artists or a boom of art with contemporary African artists. And what I found is that there has been an increase. I have a paper that looks specifically at the contemporary market for contemporary African art, and when I is that there's been an increase, but there has not been what you'd call a boom. That certainly hasn't been the case. With African American artists, it's a slightly different story. It's a little bit more complicated because, of course, you have this outlier, Jean-Michel Basquiat. And Jean-Michel Basquiat, of course, is not just a leader kind of in the art market for art by artists of African descent, but just the art market overall. So things look a little bit differently. But when you kind of take him out of the mix, what you see is you see growth. You do see growth. Literally in the past couple years, you've seen a lot of movement in the market, and it's very, very fascinating.
John Markoff: So in reading some of your pieces, I began to wonder about the supply and the community of Black artists. Have you looked at that, and has that changed? And how do they interact? The fact that there is a demand for, you know, what's happened in terms of the Black artist community over the last 20 or 30 years? Has it grown significantly?
Patricia Banks: Well, so what's really interesting is the community has shifted to a certain degree with respect to where in the art world it's located. Sociologists talk a lot about the art world. What I would suggest is that there are multiple art worlds. And so because of segregation, what you saw is that when it came to exhibitions, when it came to sales, when it even came to where artists were being written about, there was real segregation. And so artists of African descent, African American artists, were really in a different kind of space in the art world. So what you've seen over time is you've seen the kind of elite center of the art world kind of open up. And so that's when you're looking at artists who are selling at Christie's and Sotheby's, that's what you're seeing. Why did that happen? Well, so why did that happen? So there are— and so this is a part of a bigger project. So that's actually one of the questions that I want to get an even better handle on is what— how do we account for it? So there are a couple of things. So I've published a couple of pieces that get at some of it. So part of what happened is you see a shift in legitimation. And so as sociologists, what we argue, that economic value is very much connected to symbolic or cultural value. So when artists are legitimated, when they're written about as important, when they're exhibited at museums, then the market starts to shift. So that's part of it. You see a shift in legitimation. You see a whole group of scholars, art historians, who focus on African American artists, on contemporary African art. And so they've really played an important role as tastemakers in shifting the valuation, the cultural valuation of the work. So that's been one part of it. You also see shifts with certain groups of collectors. So you see particular— so you've always had African American collectors. That's always been the case. But what you have over time is, as the kind of Black class structure has shifted, is you've seen the capacity for people of African descent to increase. Okay, so when the economic, uh, kind of position of the ethnic group shift, you also saw a shift in the capacity for the group to collect art. So that matters as well.
John Markoff: And to what extent is art a driver of some of these things, and to what extent is art embedded in the larger culture and affected by all all the popular culture things that are happening? And is it a feel-good story in the sense of our society has become more inclusion and that's what's going on?
Patricia Banks: Well, so I would certainly argue that that is part of what's going on. That is part of what's going on, is that it is an indicator of our society becoming more inclusive. Now, what sociologists would always say though, is that it's possible for cultural tastes to become open without people being open to a group, right? So we can enjoy music by a particular racial and ethnic group, we can enjoy watching a movie starring a person of a particular racial and ethnic group, but that doesn't necessarily mean we will marry a person of that group, we will befriend a person of that group, or we want to live next door to them. So you always have to be careful with, you know, suggesting that just because we've got cultural openness, that that means we have kind of structural openness. But I would argue that yes, that part Part of it is that we have as a society become more open, and that gets reflected in cultural tastes.
John Markoff: What was your path to your studies? What drew you to studying?
Patricia Banks: Studying what I do? So when I got to— so I got my PhD at Harvard, and when I got to Harvard, I was determined to study issues of race and class. And I was determined to do that because when I went to Spelman, that was really a significant part of my training. I also happened to read a book by William Julius Wilson, The Truly Disadvantaged. And I just became fascinated with racial and class inequality. So when I got to Harvard, that was what I intended to focus on. And then I actually ended up teaching what they call at Harvard TFing. So I was the teaching fellow for William Julius Wilson for a course on class and urban poverty, race, class, and urban poverty. So I was on my way to doing that, and then Michelle Lamont who had been at Princeton, who's a leading cultural sociologist, just happened to come to Harvard. And so I started reading more cultural sociology, and I came across a book by French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu called Distinction. And it's a book, it's really thick, and it's statistical mainly, and it looks at how cultural tastes differ by social class. And I just became fascinated by that. Partly because my training on race and class. I said, "This is fascinating, but what happened to race?" Because his book just doesn't address race and ethnicity. So I said, "What I want to do is I want to look at cultural patronage, but I don't want to just examine it from the perspective of class. I want to look at race and ethnicity as well." So that's why my first book was based on the research that I started at Harvard, which was interviewing and going to the homes of collectors of African American art.
John Markoff: Do you see yourself extending or expanding Bordeaux's work?
Patricia Banks: Mm-hmm, I am. And so, uh, in his work, he is very much interested in trying to understand how is inequality linked to social class. And so he argues that art participation is one of the mechanisms through which social inequality, specifically class inequality, is reproduced. So in my first book, I challenge that or complicate it by looking at how art collecting is a practice through which racial identity gets reproduced using class resources. So in this book, in Diversity and Philanthropy: African American Museums, I'm taking that a step further. So my research in Represent Art and Identity Among the Black Upper Middle Class was specifically among African Americans. With Diversifying Philanthropy: African American Museums, I not only interviewed African Americans, but I also interviewed whites. And so we get a sense of how does the racial and ethnic identity of whites, how does that inform their cultural patronage with respect to specifically engaging with African American museums. So basically, I see my whole research agenda, at least one strand of it, as intervening in the literature on cultural patronage by complicating the class narrative. And so in this book, I do that further by looking at how the racial and ethnic identities of whites are implicated, but I also look at differences in profession, differences in generation, as well as differences in lifestyle. So the generational differences are really fascinating. And so what you see, for example, with younger patrons— and I look at millennials and Gen Xers in comparison to all other generations— what you find is that when it comes to some of the contemporary political issues that are going on right now, that they really feel that it's really important that African American museums are collecting objects related to that, that they're doing exhibitions, and that they're also serving as a site for community dialogue. And so that's one of the fascinating differences. What also is fascinating is ethnic differences. And so I talk in my chapter on race, I look at ethnic differences. So, you know, increasingly the African American population is ethnically diverse with respect to immigrants from Africa and immigrants from the West Indies. And so what you what you see is that those patrons have some distinct values when it comes to what should African American museums be presenting, be collecting, etc. And as you can imagine, they often take a position that is more diasporic. And so that is also another kind of fascinating way to think about differences among the upper middle and upper class with respect to their tastes and values.
John Markoff: Have you observed patterns in other racial or ethnic minorities that you could use to extend your own work?
Patricia Banks: Absolutely. So one of the exciting things about the work that I'm doing on Black cultural patronage is that I am looking at corporate support that's associated with other racial and ethnic minority groups. For example, the Latinx community, Asian Americans, etc. And so you see kind of similar processes. I assert that the support of racial and ethnic minority culture broadly functions as forms of diversity capital. So I'm not sure how much of that's going to end up in the book, but that's part of what I've been doing. Because I do, I do agree that part of the way that I'm making sense of this is through comparison with other groups. So that's one thing. And then also, when it comes to patronage of culture, It's fascinating because what you see is that when we also look at other racial and ethnic minority groups, it is often the upper middle and upper class from those groups who have taken a leadership role in collecting the art and supporting the cultural institutions, etc.
John Markoff: Can patronage be activism?
Patricia Banks: Well, it's interesting because one of the terms that some collectors are using to describe themselves now, and I mean, I actually wrote a I wrote a piece that was one of the pieces that I worked on here, was looking at cultural justice and collecting. So some collectors actually call themselves cultural activists, and they describe themselves as cultural activists because they see themselves as changing the canon by collecting art by African Americans, by lending it to museums for shows, through donating it to museums. They're playing a role in shifting the canon.
John Markoff: Are there canonical examples of corporate patronage to the Black community in particular?
Patricia Banks: What—
John Markoff: I mean, this is a world I don't know and I'm so nice.
Patricia Banks: Yeah, so for one of the projects that I'm working on is looking at corporate support of Black culture. And I actually became— all of my projects are connected. I always become interested in a topic because of a question that's unanswered by the time I finish my, uh, the previous project. So what happened was I was interviewing people to— supporters of African American museums, and in the course of doing that, I saw that there was a lot of corporate support. So when you go to museums and you look at the donor walls, you'll not only see individuals, but you'll see corporations. So for example, if we look at the National Museum of African American History and Culture, which is the African American museum that just opened on the National Mall in 2016, if you look at the list of supporters, you'll see companies like Aetna, you'll see companies like Wells Fargo, you'll see a lot of the big corporations. And so these big corporations are not only supporting the National Museum of African American History and Culture, they also support the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater. So they're really, they, you know, give these donations, they sponsor. And so I became very curious about why are Why are they doing this?
John Markoff: I want to hear why.
Patricia Banks: Yes, I want to hear why. So what is the answer? So this is a project that I'm— what I'm finding so far is that support for Black culture is a form of what I call diversity capital. So I call diversity capital cultural practices and values that allow organizations to solve problems and leverage opportunities that are related to race and ethnicity and other social differences. So in other words, what I find is that through supporting Black culture, they use it as a mechanism to manage diversity. And one of those is to signal more broadly that they are diverse and inclusive.
John Markoff: So that's a, that's a brand strategy in a sense.
Patricia Banks: Exactly.
John Markoff: But that's because they have to live in this world. They, they have Black customers, they have Black employees. All of a sudden they have to be a decent citizen and it changes their—
Patricia Banks: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Part of good citizenship, good corporate citizenship in this day and age is dealing with race and ethnicity and inclusion.
John Markoff: And are there companies— how unique are these companies? I mean, is that unusual or has that become the norm for corporate America at this point?
Patricia Banks: You know, it's very— so what I would say, what's— you get some companies And sometimes I think they're surprising to people. FedEx, for example. FedEx has supported the National Civil Rights Museum. They supported the National Museum of African American History and Culture. They supported the Martin Luther King Jr. National Memorial. So you have certain companies that have done quite a bit, and then you have others who have done less. But it's not uncommon for the big corporations to have some degree of support for Black culture. And again, it really just depends on how many kind of institutions you're supporting and the level of support.
John Markoff: And you've written about sort of the diversity in the boards of institutions, these cultural institutions. What about— did you see any correlation between diversity on corporate boards and their likelihood to participate?
Patricia Banks: Yeah, so that's an interesting question. So part of what I am— and kind of one of the issues that I'm thinking about is the cultural worlds, the kind of broader social worlds that different types of institutions are embedded in. And so what we see with cultural support more broadly is that they are often part of the social world of the upper middle and upper class. And so what you see with Black cultural institutions is that they are often— there's often some overlap between people who are kind of part of the Black upper middle and upper class and then people who are supporting them. So what that means is that sometimes with some companies, when you look at who from the company has kind of taken a leadership role in supporting the Black cultural institutions, in some cases they are African American executives. And I would argue that that's connected to, again, the social part, that this is part of their broader social set of ties, their social— the ties that they have to people, the ties that they have to organizations. And so that's And that's partly why you see them being kind of a link between the corporations and the cultural institutions.
John Markoff: Is the concept of diversity capital something you could quantify, or have you tried to?
Patricia Banks: I mean, that's a good question. That's an interesting question. I mean, so of course with my research, I am measuring it by— because I'm looking at a specific case and I'm looking at Black cultural patronage, so I am measuring it by have you made a donation to a Black cultural institution? Have you even with among the organization itself, are you a corporation that collects African American art, et cetera? So I am measuring it. Now, the interesting thing is, what would be interesting is at what points do we see important shifts in outcomes? So what I'm suggesting is I'm almost thinking about a dichotomy. So yes or no, like, have you supported Black art recently? If so, you're going to have these types of outcomes. So what would be interesting is there's a type of threshold for certain types of— so if you're doing a lot of it, what does that result in, etc.? So yeah, it would be interesting to think about that.
John Markoff: In terms of the calling for diversity on the boards of cultural organizations, what's the response been?
Patricia Banks: So right now, Diversifying cultural boards is a concern that I would say virtually every major cultural institution is aware of, and they are either making efforts to it or they know that other people are expecting to make efforts for that. So, you know, I would say that I think I think the cultural world may have, when we think about diversity and inclusion, in some ways they may have come along a little bit later, but I think when we, we look at the kind of professional organizations, when we look at major institutions, I think that that commitment really is there. I think it's really there. So I think it's going to be a matter of implementing that commitment and following through, because of course what we see with diversity, if we look at the long course, is that you can have moments where it looks like things have changed, that you've turned a corner, that will you— and things won't go back. But if we look at history in the long term, we know that that's not necessarily the case. So I think that one of the things that people will be watching this time around is, is there kind of a long-term long-term commitment and shift in these institutions and truly saying that for us to do our work, our charge, that we really do need to have diversity at all levels of the institution.
John Markoff: How big is the universe of African American museums in America?
Patricia Banks: Wow, they're over 300. Yeah, and so again, that was one of the things that I, you know, just to, as a sociologist, you know, we're always interested in what is the population of the institutions. We had some estimates about the number of African American museums, but there weren't necessarily any that were incredibly recent, and so part of the research I did was trying to identify the universe of African American museums. So there are over 300.
John Markoff: Can you talk a bit about the history of why African American art museums, as opposed to attempting to insert art into traditional museums, museums?
Patricia Banks: So they've really been parallel processes. So again, you— we've had African American museums since the 19th century, but they really began to take hold in the 1960s as part of what's called the Black Museum Movement. And so you see the Studio Museum in Harlem being established, you see the DuSable Museum. Those museums start, and then we see more and more grow. So we see more in the '80s, the '90s, the 2000s. So this happens because cultural activists and other stakeholders are feeling that, quote, "mainstream institutions are too slow in integrating them." So that's part of it. Part of it is these institutions, we're trying to integrate them. We've been literally having protests in front of places like MoMA. But they're too slow and they're not doing enough, so we'll start our own institutions. But there's also a sense of selfhood and a desire to have institutions that African Americans are taking a leadership role in. So there's that. So I would say they've really been parallel processes. They've really been parallel processes. So you see, which is interesting when you think about it, right? So you see separation with respect to cultural institutions, but you also see integration. You see both of those going on at the same time. So, you know, so if you go to the Smithsonian, you go to the National Mall and go to the various museums, you'll see art by African American artists at the American Art Museum. You'll see historical objects at the History Museum. They're there. But then you'll be able to see objects, you know, related to African American history and culture in reference to one another at the National Museum of African American History and Culture. So I would say they're very parallel processes.
John Markoff: And I see that the Smithsonian has now appointed an African American director.
Patricia Banks: Yes, absolutely, which is really— so it's important not only when we start to think about diversifying museum leadership because what we know is that the, you know, kind of the issue of diversity when it comes to majority cultural institutions is not just with the objects, not with just art, but it's also with the leadership who is staffing those institutions. And so the fact that you have an African American who is, Lonnie Bunch, who is heading the Smithsonian is incredibly significant shift. But what's also really important is that one of his areas of expertise is African American history. And so when we start to think about what culture gets valorized, when we see that the leader of the Smithsonian has expertise in a particular area that historically has not been at the center, It's really an important shift that we see the person at the top, one of their expertise is in African American history.
John Markoff: Yeah. So we've been talking about patrons and institutions and their responses. Did you get to speak with artists about their thoughts about these issues?
Patricia Banks: Yeah, so it's one of the interesting— so as part of my kind of the ethnographic work that I've done really over a decade now at this point in time, I do get to talk to artists. And I would say one of the interesting things about the pronouncements that the art market is booming, I think they would, they have a different perspective about that. So I think individual artists can sometimes feel, oh, it's booming. I haven't necessarily, yeah, I don't necessarily feel that because what we know about the art market is it's, you know, it's a winner-take-all market. So essentially, when we talk about the art market opening up in terms of race and ethnicity, what it means is that among that small group of people at the top who make it, that's become more diverse. But the broad, you know, most artists are still, you know, living their daily lives, experiencing the challenges of work, etc. So I think that's one one kind of interesting insight that you have talking with the artists and then kind of looking at some of the discourse that takes place about the art market.
John Markoff: Do artists struggle with the narratives and identities created by Black patronage?
Patricia Banks: So I think with artists, there's always, there's always probably to some degree a bit of tension between the ways that they are making a sense of their practice and the ways that their practice gets understood in terms of the art market, because it's always going to be simplified. It is going to be kind of packaged in a way that's palatable to the market. And so I certainly think that's the case. And I mean, again, when we start to think about the segregation of the art world, you saw that even then. So African American artists in the 1940s, very happy to have venues to present their work, to sell their work, but also being very cognizant of the fact that the racial lens is one way to make sense of their work, but there are just many different ways to interpret it. And so one of the things that does happen is that in the art market and collecting, when things are organized around the category of race, that does shape how people respond and make sense of the work.
John Markoff: Have you ever put on an activist hat?
Patricia Banks: I think it depends on how you think about activism. I mean, I would say that one of the really important kind of foundations for social change is research. That if we want to kind of change society, it's really important that we have an understanding of the issues. And as I was sharing before, we really just did not have a lot of scholarship that was looking at issues of race and ethnicity and cultural patronage. So the— one of the just most important things with respect to this area is getting good research about what's going on. So I'm really committed to continuing to do research in this area.
John Markoff: What are you working on next?
Patricia Banks: What is my upcoming research? So what are my projects? So continuing the book, so the corporate, the book on Black cultural patronage by corporations. So that's one of the major projects that I'm working on. But then I'm also working on the research on the art market for artists of African descent and trying to understand why it has shifted. In recent years.
John Markoff: I want to ask about generational connections to the Center because, like, did you get to visit your dad while he was here?
Patricia Banks: You know, I didn't get to visit my father while I was here. I was actually collecting data for my first book, and I was in New York City interviewing art collectors.
John Markoff: So you're obsessed.
Patricia Banks: So I was obsessed with interviewing art collectors in New York. Yeah, so it's really interesting because I remember talking with them about being here and my dad saying, "You should come visit." And it was one of those things where once you get in the swing of things with your ethnographic research, and you know as a person who's identifying people to talk to, so once you get in the swing of things, you do not want to stop that momentum. So yes, I was excited to be in New York.
John Markoff: So since you weren't here, you obviously got this perspective about it from your dad, and I wonder how I mean, were you surprised in any way, or did your dad give you a good picture of what you were going to have when you arrived at CASBS?
Patricia Banks: Yeah, I think he did give me a good picture because he loved it. I mean, he, he says it was one of the best years of his career. He just remembers it so, so, so fondly. So I expected it to be a really enriching year, and it has been. I think to a certain degree because I think it He was here around 12 years ago, I think. Was it even more than that?
John Markoff: 2006, wasn't it?
Patricia Banks: Okay, yeah. So I mean, I think though it has changed some. I just think the community, so Palo Alto and Stanford have changed a degree. So I think that has changed. And I think that was somewhat of a surprise. But I think in terms of the culture here at CASBS, that's been really exciting. And I think he gave me a really good, sense of what it would be like.
John Markoff: And you came with research projects in mind. Did you stay on track, or did you find new things?
Patricia Banks: Yeah. Well, it was so funny because when we first— I remember in the first couple of days when we were doing our introductions, we were warned that you may change your project significantly. So I felt like there's a little bit of pressure. To change your project significantly. So my projects did not change significantly, but certainly being here, there are aspects of my project that I've delved into that I don't think I would have done if I hadn't been here. So looking at certain things in more depth, taking slight turns, I definitely think that's been part of what's happened by me just, you know, talking with the other fellows and organizing various events with them. So it's been really helpful in that regard. I need another year to come up with a project that will veer even more significantly. So I think that would be a great idea.
John Markoff: What are the memorable interactions that you had at CASBS that you will take with you?
Patricia Banks: You always hear that, you know, being here at CASBS is going to really be an opportunity for you to think about your research in new ways. And I would say for me, getting connected to some of the sociological research on organizations was very important for my research. So after I presented, one of the other fellows came up to me, Elizabeth, Elizabeth, who researches gender and organizations, and she suggested suggested that we do some reading about organizations and particularly organizational threats. So when organizations are under threat, how do they respond? And so for me, when we start to think a little bit more broadly about what are some of the causes that lead corporations to have a desire to signal to the public that they are diverse and inclusive, that literature is very important because what, what I'm kind of finding is that there are some circumstances where organizations, corporations specifically, have what I call a racial image crisis. And one of the responses can be philanthropy that's associated with a racial and ethnic minority community. And so as a sociologist of culture and race and ethnicity, I hadn't necessarily been looking at some of the research on organizations. So I think that's going to be really important for me moving forward.
John Markoff: Once you leave CASBS, where do you see your work going?
Patricia Banks: Continuing the book, so the corporate, the book on Black cultural patronage by corporations. So that's one of the major projects that I'm working on. But then I'm also working on the research on the art market for artists of African descent and trying to understand why it has shifted in recent years.
John Markoff: It was a pleasure chatting with you today. Thanks for sitting down with us.
Patricia Banks: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to meet you.
John Markoff: Bye.
Patricia Banks: Bye! Thank you!
John Markoff: To learn more about the topics in this episode, check out the show notes. There you'll find links to works by our guests and relevant articles. Thanks for listening.